Hey Bro,
So Part 2 is coming up, but thought I'd throw this quote out to you from a well known mathematician and physicist. Would like to get your commentary on his talk of the "infinite abyss". Do you feel it? Think it exists? How do you respond to this?
Would love to know what you think.
Here is the quote:
"There once was in man a true happiness of which now remain to him only the mark and empty trace, which he in vain tries to fill from all his surroundings, seeking from things absent the help he does no obtain in things present. But these are all inadequate, because the infinite abyss can only be filled by an infinite and immutable object, that is to say, only by God himself.
- Blaine Pascal (Pascal's Penses, 113, thought #425)
Love you bro. Excited about the New Year on this blog with you.
Hey mate,
ReplyDeleteGood quote; although not altogether unsurprisingly, I don’t really agree with it. I’ll make a few comments and you can let me know what you think…
As with most religious text, it is a really beautifully written verse, however once read a few times it doesn’t really hold any substance (to me anyway).
The first line implies that man was truly happy once upon a time and that in order to recapture this ‘happiness’ we fill the void with material ‘things’.
Where does this initial knowledge of ‘true’ happiness to which I’m pursing originate from? I suppose in all of us there is a wish to be healthy/happy and have a general sense of wellbeing, but true happiness? I’m not even sure if that can be something that can be defined, let alone obtained. Wouldn’t my definition of true happiness be different from that of someone else’s?
For example: I’m very happy with life at the moment, I’m lucky enough to have a great family, an amazing girlfriend and group of mates that I enjoy spending time with. I’m more financially secure than 75% of the people on earth just by having a roof over my head and change in my pocket. I’m also well-educated and employed which is another luxury most people aren’t fortunate enough to have.
Now if I were to present my current situation in life to someone that had been brought up in a war torn or third world country and knew nothing except struggle and suffering, would they not consider themselves to be truly happy if put in my place?
The next line considers this pursuit to be an infinite abyss that can only be filled with God himself.
Firstly, I have no infinite abyss. To imply there is one after living such a privileged life is actually quite selfish to the people that aren’t as fortunate as me. This is also implying that without an acceptance of God one cannot be truly happy, which I naturally believe to be untrue.
I read about a study a while back (which I have since Googled the crap out of and found here and here) which actually surveyed a large sample of people (both religious and godless) and found, among other things, that:
“The present study indicates that the common assumption of greater religiosity relating to greater happiness and satisfaction is overly simplistic. Many of the nonreligious, particularly those involved with an increasingly visible movement or community characterized by stronger varieties of nonbelief, are actually as well-adjusted and satisfied as the highly religious, with those uncertain of their beliefs showing more distress.”
I would definitely recommend reading the summary of the study from the first link (although it can be a little longwinded in parts). But it comes to the conclusion that greater satisfaction/well-being (true happiness?) comes from the certainty of the belief and not necessarily what the belief is.
To me that makes a lot more sense than an imaginary infinite abyss.
Jake
looks like links dont work in the comments... here they are
ReplyDeletehttp://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=galen_29_5
http://www.nrisstudy.org/profiles_of_the_godless_powerpoint.pdf
Hey bro,
ReplyDeleteGood reply. Now lets get to the meat of this quote.
I'm not sure what Pascal intended to mean when he said "true happiness", but I'm assuming we both interpret it to mean different things. I agree with your defending of circumstantial happiness. I think it's unfair to say that we've all (human population) experienced a true happiness that is limited to our circumstances in our lifetimes. But I think Pascal is getting at something a bit deeper here; a happiness that would transcend your circumstances.
Again, I may be taking Pascal out of what he originally intended to say, but I'm just using his quote to get there. When he mentions the "infinite abyss" I can only take that to mean that he is also implying that we (humans) are infinite beings. I know that we will disagree on this point. But I would say that Pascal, a great mathematician and physical scientist, is referring to a true happiness that would have occurred before our life began here on earth.
If I am going to be as so bold to say that we are infinite beings, I am not going to say that we have "lived" for ever. But I do believe that we will live forever. Does that make sense? I believe we were all created by an infinite God who was, who is, and will always be. We had a starting point, but he has created us to not have an end point. In the context of Pascal's quote, I think he is referring to the infinite time stamp that God has placed on us, and our indescribable longing to be connected back to the infinite Creator that put us here.
Now I getting into some theological topics that are probably way out of my pay grade, and you are probably just blew past that last paragraph anyway, so I'll come full circle and just ask you the questions I wanted to ask you in the first place.
Do you sense that there is a true happiness out there that isn't limited by your circumstances? (I would call this joy)
That you can't satisfy with anything material?
PS. I read the links you sent. Really fascinating stuff. I wouldn't take much from the comparisons to the church as one of the churches they surveyed had Unitarian Universalist connections who pretty much believe anything could be God. The CFI data was pretty interesting though. Doesn't look like you can pigeon-hole those people to one belief system. Looks like some of them may believe that God is out there. I also wouldn't doubt that atheists have a similar life satisfaction to Christians. Since the data was based on circumstances, I'd have to agree that Christians go through the same hard times, struggles and issues as anyone else...just with a different perspective.
Love you bro. Appreciate your comments even though we disagree.
Gents,
ReplyDeleteI think you are both severely missing Pascal's meaning and intent of the phrase "infinite abyss". To understand the quotation, you must first understand the man. Pascal was ill most of his life, suffered a few serious accidents, and died before he was 40. While a brilliant and thought filled man, he was in constant pain and very poor.
The "infinite abyss" addresses exactly what Jake seems to hold in high regard...material means, health, and well being. Without these, there is nothing. Even the admission that material means are temporary (for this life only) logically develops into fatalism. The belief that there was nothing before your life or nothing after your life creates an empty space that cannot be fulfilled during a life because the end is always the same...which is literally nothing, an infinite abyss.
It's pretty clear that Jake hasn't experienced much pain or suffering in his young life or else he wouldn't hold to such absolutes. I certainly don't wish it upon you, but your view would change with a dramatic redirection. What if you suddenly lost your health and were unable to meet the personal and financial obligations in your life? I can promise you, in that situation, that the certainty of the believer would sustain him.
I certainly don't want to come off as condescending towards Jake, but it seems like you have had a pretty plush life...not necessarily from a financial or wealth standpoint, but admittedly in nothing really too terrible happening to you. As you pointed out, people living in war or extreme poverty certainly search for meaning in the literal hell they live in. I have spent time with these people. What would be your advice to them? Under your current beliefs, it seems that you would just surrender to the fact that it is impossible to find happiness given their circumstances. Now that is an infinite abyss.
Brenton I’ll try respond to you first then get to Roy…
ReplyDeleteI’d like you to give me an example of when you have been happy that has been unrelated to your circumstances at the time or an event in your life; i.e. un-circumstantial happiness for want of a better term. In that you can probably also explain what you mean ‘a happiness that transcends your circumstances’.
We’ve already been over this, but from my point of view emotions (including happiness) are elicited from chemical reactions in the brain. These reactions are a product of circumstance, i.e. you do a good deed and feel happy, or you take an anti-depressant and feel happy. It is for this reason that mental diseases like depression and bi-polar are able to be diagnosed and treated chemically. To insinuate that true happiness isn’t limited to the circumstances in our lives undermines this.
As you’re aware I believe that this life is all we have, and there was no before and is no after. So to suggest ourselves as infinite beings seems pretty unrealistic to me. In fact I've been thinking about it the last few days since your comment; and infinity is actually a pretty difficult concept to grasp! I came to the conclusion that I don’t believe that infinity, as a concept, exists in reality. Real things can be measured, and for something to be infinite it has to be immeasurable. For example; the largest (oldest, heaviest, most dense, etc…) thing observable by humans is the universe itself, which is both expanding (i.e. not of infinite size) and is 14 billion years old (i.e. not of infinite age). So the concept of anything being infinite throws me. I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on this. Im also curious as to what part of you you think is infinite, I’m 26 years old and I’m already feeling my body breaking down!!
Ok onto Roy.
Roy I agree with your interpretation of the ‘infinite abyss’ as material means, health etc. as described by Pascal. The link to fatalism is justified, however only in that everyone dies eventually.
I think the impact we leave on people, our legacy, is in some way our attempt to ‘fulfil’ the empty space after we die, I for one have a grandfather that has passed on that I still think about regularly and whose influence has been a factor in the person I am today. This of course does not imply that I think he is an infinite being.
I have come across the comment a couple of times on this blog that if something happened to me or that if I hadn’t lived such a privileged life, that I would not hold the views I do. Doesn’t this concern all you Christians out there? Is suffering is a pre-requisite for belief? Does this mean that your belief is a coping mechanism for the suffering you have endured in your life? This almost definitely requires a separate post that I would like to talk about in the near future.
Roy, your last paragraph is touching a little on what I was saying before in that happiness is subjective. I agree that people living in situations that you’ve described endure untold suffering and may never attain the standard of living most of us enjoy in western society. However happiness can present itself in all forms, and people in that situation may find happiness in small things that would go unnoticed in some of our lives.
I would love to hear some of your experiences with people like this and how/if they find happiness in the situations they’re in.
Jake,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the response. I certainly don't believe that suffering is a prerequisite for belief, but I do believe that God uses suffering to draw humans closer to Him. If a person never examines oneself (much like this blog) or asks the tough questions about meaning and life, then they probably don't need God as a coping mechanism. However, if that self exploration leads to a dead end, then God can reveal Himself.
You seem to be on this journey yourself, albeit in a stage of infancy. You have obviously done a fair amount of reading and seem to be intelligent. If you hold to the belief that there is no purpose or meaning to life other than the organism that exists, then it probably means that no thing or person has failed you. That's all I'm saying. You have put your faith and hope in material objects and human relationships. That's fine...just admit that you might be short on perspective because nothing appears to have "gone wrong" to this point. To ask how you will "cope" is fair. I'm certainly not going to advocate the position that suffering is required to know God. The atheist has a god too, it's just material in nature. When the god of the atheist fails, then they must seek another...or question their belief.
All I am saying is that you haven't had much reason to question your position. You seem to be staunch on it, though, so there must be a reason for your motivation. You might feel like Christians are idiots...which is fine. You might believe that your brother is somehow depriving himself of life experience or happiness because of his beliefs. But, your motivation to even participate in this blog comes from somewhere. It's healthy to explore these things.
Roy,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate the honesty and thanks for the comment. In regards to God revealing Himself in the face of suffering I always think of the story of Primo Levi; he was an Italian chemist who was imprisoned at Auschwitz during the Second World War and consequently published a book, If This Is a Man, about his story. While I am yet to read the whole book I have read various extracts, and this in particular sticks with me:
“I too entered the Lager as a nonbeliever, and as a nonbeliever I was liberated and have lived to this day. Actually, the experience of the Lager with its frightful iniquity confirmed me in my nonbelief. It has prevented me, and still prevents me, from conceiving of any form of providence or transcendent justice… I must nevertheless admit that I experienced (and again only once) the temptation to yield, to seek refuge in prayer. This happened in October 1944, in the one moment in which I lucidly perceived the imminence of death… naked and compressed among my naked companions with my personal index card in hand, I was waiting to file past the ‘commission’ that with one glance would decide whether I should go immediately into the gas chamber or was instead strong enough to go on working. For one instance I felt the need to ask for help and asylum; then, despite my anguish, equanimity prevailed: one does not change the rules of the game at the end of the match, nor when you are losing. A prayer under these conditions would have been not only absurd (what rights could I claim? and from whom?) but blasphemous, obscene, laden with the greatest impiety of which a nonbeliever is capable. I rejected the temptation: I knew that otherwise were I to survive, I would have to be ashamed of it.”
I cannot imagine that I would ever be in a situation as horrendous as experienced by Primo, however the sentiment still sound; the rules of the game do not change just because you are losing. Also what right would I have to seek God’s ‘assistance’ in the face of adversity after denouncing him when times were good? I agree that I do lack the perspective of most people in that I haven’t endured great suffering or grief, however I don’t think that makes me any less qualified to make an assessment on belief based on rationality.
I'm also curious on what you mean by ‘when the god of the atheist fails’, do you mean disappointment or suffering? Also, why a failure in the ‘atheist god’ would prompt me to ‘seek another’. When you experience a failure in the Christian God, do you see it as a failure in your belief system also? Does it prompt you to seek another? Or do you consequently find solitude in your beliefs? Do you think this would be any different whether you were a Christian, Atheist, Muslim etc.?
I don’t think Christians are idiots, nor do I think my brother is depriving himself of life experience because of his belief. This is probably one of the few times Brenton and I will agree here, but I think his relationship with a Christian God has enriched his life, and I have no problem with that. The great thing about living in a free thinking society is that everyone can make their own decisions about what makes them happy. I completely understand humanity’s need for the belief in a higher power whether it be used as a coping mechanism in times of trouble or as a need believe in something bigger than themselves. I do not have that need, and still live a happy and fulfilled life. Where the problem lies for me is when people assume what works for them works for everyone, and then try to force their beliefs on others.
Jake,
DeleteI have been told a similar story as the one you cited about Primo Levi by my father, who is an atheist. He was in the US military when a severe outbreak of meningitis occured. According to his story, there were several hundred soldiers that acquired meningitis and were quarantined in a hospital. My father told me that there were several soldiers that prayed during this time and that he observed that it made them feel better, or at peace, with what was happening. I relate this story because my father is open to the idea of God, but does not believe in God. Primo seems to hold a steadfast non-belief as he appearingly would feel ashamed of his situation if he succumbed to the "temptation" to pray or seek a higher cause. I admire him for not being disingenous, but, man, that's hardcore. My only response to the story is that you can find just as many testimonies to the opposite about the Holocaust.
Fortunately for you and me, you have every right to seek God while previously denouncing Him. One of Jesus' closest disciples and companions, Peter, did exactly that - even after Jesus predicted to Peter that he would. Peter later reconciled himself to Christ. You and both know of examples of professed Atheist converting and professed believers doing the same. The message of Jesus Christ is that salvation is available to all. I do agree that you have the right to make an assessment on belief based on rationale, as do I. All I previously pointed out was that you are still young, 26? Beliefs change as you age. All sorts of beliefs. I think differently now than I did at 26. I now have a wife and two children, that will change or establish some new beliefs in any person. Not necessarily spiritually related, but they could be.
My reference to the "atheist god" was in direct response to your previous mention of things that bring you happiness. You mentioned health, education, financial resources (not wealth), and your girlfriend. My viewpoint is that any of those things can/will fail you - or me for that matter. You don't have to be a Christian to suffer disappointment. God has never failed me, and God states that He will never fail me. I hold that belief, so it's self evident and unwavering. Also, the Christian is not on Earth to find happiness, but to know God. In that is the ultimate happiness. I absolutely believe that a person with any set of beliefs will have those beliefs challenged - my God, your boy Primo is a perfect example. They will either strengthen their belief or, perhaps, abandon it. You are being challenged in your beliefs, albeit, in a non threatening manner via this blog. It's interesting, fun, and in my opinion, quite healthy.
I know you don't think Christians are idiots, but I do think that you believe that they have chosen to limit their exposure to outside thinking. I have read Nietzsche, Breton, Lawrence Bush, Dawkins, Sam Harris. Have you read much by Christian authors? I've got a great book that I can send you. I really hate to hear you say that you do not have the need to consider something/someone bigger than yourself. Many of the great philosophers, both believers and non-believers, consider that to be the question that they commit a life's work to. I think we all have a need or wonder about purpose and meaning in life. You can be an agnostic or mysticist or an atheist, but please don't say that you are totally closed to a "need" that is greater than yourself. You will miss out on a lot of good reading and discussion.
I would appreciate you clarifying your last statement (sentence beginning with Where the problem...). If you are only speaking of religion or belief in the context of a give take relationship, then you don't understand that a Christian believes in God as an absolute truth. I don't think you would find a Christian that would claim "Christianity works for them".
Really enjoying your thoughts here...keep them coming.
Jake: Great comments. So many topics to talk about, but let me try to get to the two big ones we are tackling right now so I don't write a novel in the comments section:
ReplyDelete1. Un-circumstantial happiness
2. Suffering is not a pre-requiste for belief in God
1. Think back to the time that I was going through a season of depression. You saw me. I visited you during that time in London. One of the most difficult periods in my life, yet I still had joy: this is what I would call un-circumstantial happiness. My circumstances were horrible and I felt stuck in a position that was limited by my emotional circumstances, and feelings of happiness were few and far between. But I think you even commented to me once that you knew my character was as such that you didn't feel I was a danger to myself. I can tell you the source of that wasn't in myself. I couldn't trust my feelings during that period, but I knew who I could trust: my faith in God. That gave me incredible joy; not based in a feeling, or a circumstance, but in a God who had proven Himself over and over again in my life, that I knew, based on previous outcomes I could trust. Joy and happiness are very different things. I'd like to get your opinion on that too. Do you feel joy over certain things that aren't limited to your circumstances?
2. Suffering is not a pre-requisite for belief in God. Like I've told you before, if I truly believe what the Bible teaches and what I've also experienced, I cannot claim that any kind of activity, and I mean ANY activity that you, or I do, will cause us to believe in God. I believe God is a reasonable and logical God, but good reasoning and logic won't cause you to believe in God. Nor will suffering or upbringing or any good or bad circumstance. We may find ourselves in these circumstances when we finally believe in Him, but it isn't because of our circumstances, it's because God chooses us to, and causes us to believe. Take your Primo story against the countless other stories of other Holocaust victims that came to believe during this period. If salvation was based on suffering, wouldn't everyone that went through that believed?
I'll give you my theory on why lots of people wrestle with this question of suffering. Many people come to belief in God in moments of suffering because they see a need in front of them that they cannot fulfill on their own. So they search for one. This leads many people to search for answers outside of their current circumstance; to deeper questions of existence, meaning, purpose and ultimate need. When we are placed in a situation that we realize we need more than a circumstantial savior, we are in a place that is ripe for belief in God. Again, this is not caused by our reasoning, but by God's choosing.
Does that help bring clarity to some of the questions you were asking about Christian beliefs? What are your thoughts on this?