So Brenton got a little ahead on himself in the last post and referred to a conversation that we hadn’t got around to posting yet…
Anyways here it is in all its glory… bit of a taster before I get into the beginning of my atheist ‘faith’
Brenton: got a question that might spark some discussion....
Jake: shoot
Brenton: If you had 10 minutes of unfiltered discussion with the Pope, what would you ask? What would you bring up?
Jake: not sure
Jake: it probably wouldn’t be any different to a discussion with you
Jake: I’d probably ask him what he is thinking trying to promote abstinence instead of contraception in Africa
Brenton: hmmm, that’s a big topic...
Brenton: anything else?
Jake: not really
Jake: he’s not really a major factor in my life
Jake: we don’t really have a lot in common
Jake: :P
Brenton: hahaha fair enough..
Jake: what would you ask him?
Brenton: I might ask him about the whole abstinence thing. But I'd probably focus more the state of the Catholic Church.
Brenton: Why there are so many Catholics, yet so few adherers to their precepts
Brenton: Why he thinks there is such disparity?
Brenton: Probably throw some theological questions in there...
Brenton: Maybe ask him how the whole celibacy thing is going... :)
Jake: hahah
Jake: yeh screw that
Jake: pun definitely intended...
Brenton: I think it would be tough to lead others without a wife. There is just so much life experience you would gain (i imagine) by being married. Not to mention having a companion...
Brenton: what would you ask Dawkins?
Jake: again I'd have to think about it
Jake: but a lot of what I’d ask I’ve already read
Brenton: Are you interested in all of what his life is like?
Jake: i am
Jake: maybe I’m just not in an inquisitive mood today
Brenton: hahaha
Brenton: I've often thought what it would be like to follow Dawkins around for a year. See what his day to day is like...
Brenton: hahaha
Jake: manic i bet
Brenton: manic in what way?
Jake: he’s a pretty busy dude
Brenton: no kidding...
Brenton: I'd like to ask him what legacy he wants to leave behind...
Brenton: What his whole point is in the atheist movement...
Jake: i think he just wrote a book defending his beliefs
Jake: and it exploded into a movement
Brenton: you don't think that was part of his intention though?
Jake: possibly
Jake: it would have been unrealistic to think that that book would have been as popular as it was though
Brenton: hmmm
Brenton: would you have become an atheist without Dawkins?
Jake: yep
Jake: i was already there
Jake: before i read Dawkins
Brenton: so who/what else influenced you to that direction?
Jake: mostly just my own thinking
Brenton: really? C’mon, that's like asking a musical artist who their influences were and them saying...."I just thought this stuff up on my own..."
Jake: hahah
Jake: I’m pretty awesome
Brenton: hahaha
Jake: nah i spose it was a combination of things
Jake: i read a lot
Brenton: who did you read?
Jake: not an author in particular
Jake: i think Dawkins was probably the first atheism based book i read
Jake: but i was attracted to it because of my belief
Jake: or what i believed rather
Brenton: so how did that belief "sprout"? Is that the right word?
Jake: it wasn’t that
Jake: i think it was the gradual disillusionment with Christianity
Brenton: So expand on that. What disillusioned you, and where did you go for answers?
Jake: i don’t think there was a specific point in time
Brenton: Sure. But certain things must have disillusioned you, so you must have gone looking somewhere for answers...
Jake: i think you’re talking micro when I’m talking macro...
Jake: :P
Brenton: hahaha...
Brenton: you're a funny guy. So obviously I'm not asking the right question here...
Brenton: I guess I'm not so concerned with WHEN as opposed to WHAT drew you to believe what you believe now.
Brenton: Even though you are totally awesome, you didn't come out of the womb quoting Darwin....
Brenton: As I recall, Mum said you were completely silent... :)
Jake: yeh i was actually contemplating evolution until i was rudely interrupted by birth :P
Jake: nah seriously i don’t really know
Jake: it sorta just seemed like a natural progression for me
Jake: I’m a pretty rational guy
Jake: and having a big dude in the sky wasn’t that rational for me
Brenton: In your own mind-set...
Jake: so i spose that sprouted the idea
Jake: and then various things I’ve read since have confirmed it
Brenton: OK. So I have a genius brother and I didn't even know it! :)
Jake: haha
Jake: it doesn’t take a genius to become an atheist
Brenton: I'd agree? :P
Brenton: But seriously...why do you say that?
Jake: because i don’t think it’s a decision based on intelligence
Brenton: Really? Think about that for a second. Could an intellectually challenged individual come up with atheism? Or even someone under the age of 3?
Brenton: ...
Jake: well no
Jake: but along those lines could they arrive at Christianity either?
Jake: obviously there is a certain level of intelligence required to understand the concept
Jake: but beyond that i don’t think there is an intellectual difference of choosing atheism over any other spiritual worldview
Brenton: OK. But you're still basing your atheism on baseline intellectualism and rationalism. There wasn't any choice or any influence? You just "fell into it"?
Jake: no of course there were influences
Jake: i just can’t pinpoint them right at this minute
Jake: to be honest i probably won’t be able to
Brenton: I'd love for you to think on it though..
Jake: yeh i will
Jake: but it is similar to me asking who you read to push you to Christianity
Jake: I’ve got one story that stands out actually
Jake: when i was probably about 9 or 10
Jake: we were always told that if you pray to god he will answer your prayer
Jake: i was sitting in the car at kalamunda central waiting for mum to come back from some grocery shopping, and it was absolutely pissing rain... so i prayed to god for it to stop raining for 10 minutes at kalamunda central so mum wouldn’t get wet (i think she was bringing me food at the time) and it didn’t stop...
Jake: even then i was starting to doubt the whole god thing
Jake: and that sole experience is by no means my basis for atheism by the way
Brenton: sounds like it definitely had an effect on you though..
Hello. I wanted to point out an important aspect that is being overlooked by Brenton. atheism is the default position. We are not born with any specific belief in anything. That is why children grow up to believe in almost all cases what their parents believe in. I don't have to explain why I don't believe there is a giant teapot orbiting the moon. The line of questioning about "What made you conclude that there is no god" is a bit of a fallacy. I see no evidence of a God, so Therefor I hold no belief in one. The burden of proof and explination lies soley on those making claims that something is in fact there when there is no evidence for such a claim.
ReplyDeleteCheers
Grace
for what its worth, a claim either way regarding God requires a great deal of faith. You're either putting all your eggs in the basket of No God or God. Both beliefs require a very large leap of faith. Or, if you don't like the word belief, both truths. Or assumptions. Or even opinions. Also, (not saying I dont have faith in these things too) but it requires a lot of faith to believe that anything "provable" is actually true. You're trusting how that thing is true and that the method by which you prove it to be true is trustworthy at all, not to mention trusting your cognitive faculties to perceive correctly and to therefore transmit "real" ideas into your head.
ReplyDeleteSo i guess what i'm getting at is I agree, unbelief is the default position but ultimately we choose to believe in something, whether we define that something as "nothing" or as "God", we're staking our life on it.
I would like to reply to ryan g's comment. You have a misconception about what it means to be an atheist. It's a LACK of belief. I, and any other atheist have no belief. It's like you assuming there isnt a purple horse in the next room. You dont need to have faith, theres no reason to assume something like that.
ReplyDeleteGrace I appreciate your comments on here! I wish we could have started this discussion when we were both in KS!
ReplyDeleteJake and I talked about your comments today and specifically about the idea that you are "born an atheist". I think it's quite a leap for you to assume that and there are a couple of questions and comments I'd like to propose to you.
1) Can you believe ANYTHING when you are born? Even real things like rainbows, ice cubes or gravity?
2) Can you really chose to believe in NOTHING?
Isn't this a "belief" in itself?
I think the short answer to both these questions is agnosticism. As a baby your beliefs are unknown to you or anyone else. To say that as a default everyone is atheist is to give infants a level of thought that they just haven't developed yet.
It also sounds to me like you need to explain your definition of atheism a little more. To claim to be an atheist you must BELIEVE that a god or diety does not exist. That is a far cry from having a lack of belief. Being an atheist also requires you having much faith. Like I've told Jake, he can no more prove to me that God does not exist, than I can prove to him that God does exist (that is if we are using the modern scientific method to prove things).
Do you truly believe that God does not exist? If so you have a very strong belief that requires a lot of faith.
I don't think that anyone (and please correct me if im wrong Grace) is totally 100% atheist in the way that Christians have total belief in God.
ReplyDeleteI have said to Brenton many times that if there is enough evidence for a supernatural being, or if I 'experience God' as Brenton puts it, I would have no problems in believing.
So I think that counts me out as an atheist in the purest sense, but rates me as an agnostic with a strong persuasion to the atheist worldview.
So when the question of faith comes up I think that the belief in the absence of a God requires about as much faith as believing that what we read in the newspaper in the morning.
I dont know for an absolute fact that the quotes in the newspaper are correct, or even that the person being quoted exists, unless I see that person with my own eyes and hear them speak. So 'faith' is required there.
If I chose to investigate and followed that reporter around, I would soon discover that my 'faith' in the newspaper was correct.
I am yet to see God or hear Him speak. I have investigated and I still do not find enough evidence to believe. Therefore any 'faith' that may have been present in the Bible is unfounded, and thats how I'm an atheist (even if only 99% atheist :P)
Well you are right, In the strictest of terms I would me an agnostic in the same way that you are agnostic about a teapot flying around the moon. I cant prove that there isnt one, but again, There is no reason to assume something like that, and with no evidence, for me, its a pretty safe bet. That line of logic reallys boils down to semantics. I feel comfortable with my position and calling myself an atheist.
ReplyDeleteAbout being born an atheist.. You don't believe in anything when you are born... and that is exactly my point. even concrete things seem abstract. Certainly no one is born with a belief in God, Thor, Mother Earth ect, these things are instilled by parents and culture as we age.
Theres a difference in believing in nothing and not holding a belief in god. I believe in myself, I believing that if I work hard, use my time wisely, I can expect to be reasonably successful. That is based on evidence. I don't believe in god because there is no reason for me to believe in god. THAT being said, I do believe in the CONCEPT of god, meaning, I understand what your saying and where you are coming from, I just think you are mistaken and that it is made up to control people.