From Atheism to Belief: The Sequel?

So Jake and I have been continuing our search into what influences and experiences helped originate his atheism. I may be even asking that question the wrong way, as it seems like there is a thought out there that we are somehow all born without a belief. This discussion was started on the comments section of the previous blog and if you haven't read it, I highly suggest that you do before you continue reading.
I would contend that being born without beliefs doesn't equate to atheism, but it seems that all may not think that way...


Jake and I had another conversation on this today and on the origin of his beliefs and it reads as kind of a sequel to our discussion. Seems like we have a sufficient prequel and sequel but no middle? Who says this story has to go in order anyway!


Also, just a sidenote: It may seem to everyone else that this is all that Jake and I ever talk about. But I can assure you as bros, the real conversations we have about our lives and events going on are happening.  Just not on this blog :) 


I do know this though. We have both been really encouraged by all your comments so keep them coming!


Here is the conversation:


Brenton  
Hey bro


Jake  
yo
Jake  
whats goin on


Brenton  
read your last comment..
Brenton  
I'm assuming that's not your response to my blog


Jake  
part of it
Jake  
was that not enough for you?


Brenton
Im fine with it being part of it...but there was no mention of influences or experiences that led you to your "99% atheism"
Brenton  
Would like to hear more of the origin of your belief


Jake  
what if i dont know...
Jake  
i dont keep a journal


Brenton  
It doesnt have to be exact...
Brenton  
I just think i'd like to hear more about how you came to this understanding


Jake  
i think ur making a big thing out of nothing
Jake  
which is probably why im having a bit of difficulty trying to answer ur questions


Brenton  
hmmm it's interesting you say that/
Brenton  
I think the reason I'm asking is because a big part of the atheist argument is they claim people of religion are either brainwashed, or culturally raised into their beliefs.
Brenton  
It seemed like a legitimate question to ask the same of you...


Jake
i wasnt culturally raised into atheism though
Jake
i was raised as a christian
Jake
so it isnt really the same


Brenton
So if you were raised as a christian, WHAT happened in you to refute that raising and become atheist?
Brenton
I think thats what I'm looking for.....and you probably are too?


Jake
weve been through this before though
Jake
i dont see a belief in god to be rational


Brenton
I can see this conversation going a lot better in person :)
Brenton
Something must have changed in you to go from "raised as a Christian" to "don't see God being rational" The must have been a catalyst to this change. Was the Cole's experience it? Is that all it took?


Jake
it was part of it
Jake
i didnt wake up one day and change my mind
Jake
and i dont know if i have any more stories like that


Brenton
and from your last comment it doesn't seem like you are an all the way atheist either...


Jake
only because i dont think anyone is


Brenton
I would agree with you.


Jake
im about as close as you can get though
Jake
:)


Brenton
Interesting that you can go all the way as a deist but not all the way as an atheist


Jake
well to believe in something 100% you have to close your mind to all other possibilities
Jake
which i think goes against what it is to be an atheist


Brenton
I disagree....an atheist believes there is no God. Meaning there is no option for God to exist...
Brenton
I would say that if someone wants to remain "open minded" as you call it, they'd have to be an agnostic


Jake
in the purest sense yes
Jake
which as i said, i dont think exists
Jake
im an atheist due to the lack of evidence in a god
Jake
any god


Brenton
then you're a skeptic, not an atheist


Jake: a skeptic would imply belief


Brenton
a skeptic agnostic
Brenton
And it sounds to me that the reason you are that way is because your "christian" upbringing did not provide enough evidence for you.


Jake
i would have thought that through our conversations you would know that i dont believe christianity to be what we were taught growing up
Jake
and agnostic implies that i am not certain in my decision
Jake
or that i havent made my mind up
Jake
i have
Jake
i dont believe in god, at all
Jake
but thats not to say that im not open to the possibility
Jake
and that is the main difference
Jake
between my athiesm and your deism
Jake
your mind is closed to any other possibility other than a christian god


Brenton
Well all I can say brother, is that when you meet Jesus and experience God, and I believe one day you will, you'll feel the same way too.
Brenton 
And that your mind is open to the possiblity is awesome!


Jake
not when
Jake
if
Jake
and let me point out that the fact that your mind isnt, is not
Brenton
You're right, my mind isn't open to the idea that there is no God because I've experienced Him. That's not to say that I don't doubt. I think in order to have faith, doubt is a inevitable element of it. But it doesn't mean I don't believe there is a God.


Brenton: One God.


Jake
yep i get that
Jake
but closed mindedness is the apex of a very slippery slope


Brenton
I think your data supporting the claim: that Christian deists who believe in one God that you can have a relationship with, are on the apex of a slippery slope? I think that data is working against you there.


Jake
closed mindedness is the underlying factor of everything that is wrong with religion


Brenton
I think you are going to have to define your phrase "closed mindedness" a little bit more. But I think that would require another blog...


Jake
it doesnt
Jake
you are locked into your belief
Jake
nothing i could say or do would convince you to not believe in god
Jake
or what is written in the bible


Brenton
Sure. But I could say nothing a human said convinced me of BELIEVING in God either.


Jake
thats beside the point


Brenton
Not really. Your judging my closed mindedness based on what humans can convince me of.
Brenton
humans can influence and sway my thoughts to go in many different directions, but for me to say "My hope and trust is in the Lord" doesn't come from being convinced of it by some human. It comes from God.


Jake
yep
Jake
still missing my point
Jake
lets forget religion for a minute
Jake
any conflict, ever, has been the product of 2 sides not coming to a mutual agreement
Jake
for that to happen there generally has to be compromise by both parties
Jake
if your mind is closed to compromise, there is conflict


Brenton
Agreed. closed mindedness in conflict is bad news.
Brenton
how does that relate?
Jake
now back to religion
Jake
you are closed minded
Jake
and we have a conflict
Jake
:)


Brenton
:)


Jake
get where im at now?


Brenton
The fact that I believe in a loving God that commands me to love my neighbour as myself presents the idea of conflict to anyone who doesn't believe in the same God?
Brenton
"neighbour" being anyone? of any religious or irreligious belief?
Brenton
I don't get it


Jake
ok when i say you i dont mean you personally, but Christianity as a whole
Jake
i know we dont have a personal conflict
Jake
but atheism and chrisitanity as wholes do


Brenton
So the fact that our beliefs as wholes have conflicting beliefs means we are on slippery slopes?
Brenton
I still dont get it.


Jake
when i said slippery slope i meant that closed mindedness can lead to other, more damaging, sentiments: intolerance, segregation etc...


Brenton
That's because Christianity is filled with broken sinful people like me. But atheism is filled with people like that too. Just because atheist aren't "closed minded" doesn't mean they aren't open to things like that....
Brenton
So I'm still not seeing your point


Jake
true
Jake
but it rules out religious conflict


Brenton
Try Stalin or Pol Pot....they were atheists....no religious conflict there?
Brenton
I guess atheism is "open minded" to genocide?
Brenton
That was a joke. Im still not seeing your point.


Jake
joking about genocide now?
Jake
:P


Brenton
well you say that atheism produces no religious conflict....I disagree
Brenton
Dawkins book is nothing but confrontational and causes conflict
Brenton
The fact that he says "tolerating other religions is wrong" is completely confrontational
Brenton
So I still don't get your point that Christians "closed mindedness" brings religious conflict. If Christians believed and practiced the teachings of Jesus there would be LESS conflict.


Jake
yeh but they dont do they?


Brenton
We certainly are not perfect in our methodology, but we strive for it.
Brenton
Is this another reason why you are atheist?
Brenton
Because you don't see the congruency in Chrsitians and its teachings?


Jake
disillusionment with christianity?


Brenton
sure. Im looking for anything at this point :P


Jake
yeh sure
Jake
but it isnt the only reason


Brenton
ok....thats what I'm looking for you to answer in response to my blog :)
Brenton
Might require some serious thought tho...